(26)
Q.-The Treasurer does not consider himself responsible for the amounts being correct?
A.-No. You will see what is said about that in the Financial Instructions (produced). The Treasurer receives so much from the Postmaster. It is not possible for him to go and check all the accounts of the different departments. He must trust to their correctness.
The Chairman.-I think he ought to make surprise visits.
A.-Yes, he ought to make an occasional test.
Mr. Thurburn.--Each department ought to have their own checks at the same time.
The Chairman.--That does not relieve the Treasurer. (To witness) I take it that Alves' Day book only showed the amount he paid in?
A.--Which was paid in by the shroff.
Mr. Thurburn.--The whole of the Treasury department apparently has been worked by Mr. Alves and Mr. Carvalho for many years? They had no regular Treasurer?
A.--That is so.
Q.-They had a man in fact whose whole time was taken up in the Post Office?
A.-Yes.
Q.--Mr. Mitchell Innes was really the first Treasurer?
A.--Yes.
The Chairman.--You say Alves' cash books have disappeared?
A.-There is only one left.
Mr. Thurburn.--Alves had nothing to do with the assessed taxes personally?
A.--No, that work was done by another clerk altogether. To show you that there was an idea that he could receive money it was only the other day that a man told me that when he had money to pay to the Treasury he paid it to Alves and sometimes left him a cheque for assessed taxes.
The Chairman.--To whose order was the cheque made out?
A.-To the Colonial Treasurer, I should think.
Mr. Bird.--Had Alves the power to take a cheque?
A.-I think not, unless he was acting cashier.
The Chairman.--The public pays of course at its own risk. ... who pays wrongfully and does not get a proper receipt is liable.
Mr. Thurburn.--The receipts are all right.
A.--I remember a case that occurred a short time ago in which a public company paid some crown rent and afterwards found out that it had already been paid. ... It appears that the rent had been paid by a Chinaman and by the Company. One of the men of the Company said to Alves "How is it that if the money was already paid by the Chinaman that you took it from us?" and Alves replied "Oh, the Treasury never refuses any money." It was only a matter of $5.40 so nobody was much the worse.
The Chairman.--As to the amount of the defalcations you have only been able to ascertain actually the sums taken in 1890, 1891, and 1892?
A.-Ascertain absolutely, yes, because in the Rent Roll from the Land Office there are always certain adjustments to be made, but I calculate the amount of the defalcations to be $59,731.12, but, as I say, for the period from January 1st 1888 to December 31st 1889, the amount is only approximate as the Rent Roll is not forthcoming. The Treasury Rent Roll for 1887 may be looked upon as correct.
(27)
Mr. Bird.--Previous to 1888 was it all right?
A.--The Rent Roll for 1887 is balanced and audited.
Q.--And the amount is correct?
A.-The amount agrees with the amount paid into the Treasury within about $5, I think. There is a very small difference between the Treasury ledger and the amount paid in.
The Chairman.--You have the year 1888 for which there is no Treasury Rent Roll; you have the Land Office Rent Roll, and you have the amount actually received by the Treasury for rents.
A.--Yes. The amount is approximate and there might be some adjustments.
Q.--But not much?
A.-It would reduce the amount rather than increase it.
Q.--In 1889 there was the same thing?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Have you the book for 1890?
A.--We have the Rent Roll for 1890.
Q.--Has that been balanced now?
A.--Yes; here is the balance (produced).
Q.--For 1890 to 1892 how much have you ascertained to have been taken?
A.--$31,186.56.
Q.--And for 1888 and 1889, ascertained as you have already explained?
A.--$28,544.56.
Q.--The total is?
A.--$59,731.12.
Q.--Is there any reason to believe that there are any other defalcations?
A.--No.
Q.--Don't you think that there are amounts that he has omitted? For instance in 1892, sums that appear as not paid, may not they have been paid?
A.--I think not. I think this book is correct, and of course during the past two months a good many payments have been made and the Rent Roll has been consulted.
Q.--If the book for 1890 had been balanced at the end of January 1891 the defalcations would have appeared at once?
A.--Certainly, unless he had fudged his book. I don't think he could have done that. He would have had to make some re-arrangement which would have been detected.
Mr. Thurburn.--This book (Rent Roll) would have required re-arranging?
A.--I don't know whether the Treasurer mentioned the date on which the book was balanced. The rent roll for 1887 was balanced in 1889.
Mr. Bird.--Eighteen months afterwards?
A.--Yes. That ought not to be; there ought to be a special man put on it if necessary.
Mr. Thurburn.--What is the system of payments? Is there a chance of similar frauds?
A.--I know nothing of that, but I should not think there is.
Q.--That is audited at home?
A.--Well, the whole of the accounts are supposed to be audited at home.
680
(26)
Q.-The Treasurer does not consider himself responsible for the amounts being
correct?
A.-No. You will see what is said about that in the Financial Instructions (produced). The Treasurer receives so much from the Postmaster. It is not possible for him to go and check all the accounts of the different departments. He must trust to their correctness.
The Chairman.-I think he ought to make surprise visits. A-Yes, he ought to make an occasional test.
Mr. Thurburn.--Each department ought to have their own checks at the same time. The Chairman.That does not relieve the Treasurer. (To witness) I take it that Alves' Day book only showed the amount he paid in?
A.--Which was paid in by the shroff.
Mr. Thurburn.--The whole of the Treasury department apparently has been worked by Mr. Alves and Mr. Carvalho for many years? They had no regular Treasurer?
A.That is so.
Q.-They had a man in fact whose whole time was taken up in the Post Office?
A.-Yes,
Q.--Mr. Mitchell Innes was really the first Treasurer?
A.--Yes.
The Chairman. You say Alves' cash books have disappeared? A.-There is only one left.
Mr. Thurburn.--Alves had nothing to do with the assessed taxes personally?
A.--No, that work was done by another clerk altogether. To show you that there was an idea that he could receive money it was only the other day that a man told me that when he had money to pay to the Treasury he paid it to Alves and sometimes left him a cheque for assessed taxes.
The Chairman.To whose order was the cheque made out?
A.-To the Colonial Treasurer, I should think.
Mr. Bird.-Had Alves the power to take a cheque?
A.-I think not, unless he was acting cashier.
who
The Chairman.--The public pays of course at its own risk. pays wrongfully and does not get a proper receipt is liable. Mr. Thurburn. The receipts are all right.
In strict law the
person
appears
A.---I remember a case that occurred a short time ago in which a public company paid some crown rent and afterwards found out that it had already been paid. It that the rent had been paid by a Chinaman and by the Company. One of the men of the Company said to Alves "How is it that if the money was already paid by the Chinaman that you
took it from us?" and Alves replied " Ob, the Treasury never refuses any money." It was only a matter of $5.40 so nobody was much the worse.
The Chairman.-As to the amount of the defalcations you have only been able to ascertain actually the sums taken in 1890, 1891, and 1892 ?
A.-Ascertain absolutely, yes, because in the Rent Roll from the Land Office there are always certain adjustments to be made, but I calculate the amount of the defalcations to be $59,731.12, but, as I say, for the period from January 1st 1888 to December 31st 1889, the amount is only approximate as the Rent Roll is not forthcoming. The Treasury Rent Roll for 1887 may be looked upon as correct.
( 27 )
Mr. Bird.-Previous to 1888 was it all right? A.The Rent Roll for 1887 is balanced and audited.
Q-And the amount is correct?
A.-The amount agrees with the amount paid into the Treasury within about $5, I think. There is a very small difference between the Treasury ledger and the amount paid
in.
The Chairman.-You have the year 1888 for which there is no Treasury Rent Roll you have the Land Office Rent Roll, and you have the amount actually received by the Treasury for rents.
but
A. Yes. The amount is approximate and there might be some adjustments.
...
-But not much?
A.-It would reduce the amount rather than increase it.
-In 1889 there was the same thing?
-Yes.
Q-Have you the book for 1890?
A. -We have the Rent Roll for 1890.
-Has that been balanced now? A.-Yes; here is the balance (produced).
Q-For 1890 to 1892 how much have you ascertained to have been taken? A.-$31,186.56.
Q.--And for 1888 and 1889, ascertained as you have already explained? A.-$28,544.56.
Q.-The total is?
A. $59,131.12.
Q-Is there any reason to believe that there are any other defalcations? A.-No.
Q-Don't you think that there are amounts that he has omitted? 1892, sums that appear as not paid, may not they have been paid?
For instance in
A-I think not. I think this book is correct, and of course during the past two months a good many payments have been made and the Ront Roll has been consulted.
Q-If the book for 1890 had been balanced at the end of January 1891 the defal- cations would have appeared at once?
A.--Certainly, unless he had fudged his book. I don't think he could have done that. He would have had to make some re-arrangement which would have been detected.
Mr. Thurburn.--This book (Rent Roll) would have required re-arranging? A.-I don't know whether the Treasurer mentioned the date on which the book was balanced. The rent roll for 1887 was balanced in 1889.
Mr. Bird.-Eighteen months afterwards?
A. Yes. That ought not to be; there ought to be a special man put on it if
necessary.
Mr. Thurburu.—What is the system of payments? Is there a chance of similar frauds?
A.-I know nothing of that, but I should not think there is. Q.-That is audited at home?
A.-Well the whole of the accounts are supposed to be audited at home,
680
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